You think “this is it, this is the thing that’s gonna allow humanity to become enlightened!”

I don’t. And don’t you fucking dare put words in my mouth again. Your inability to read doesn’t mean I’ve said what you believe. Covering your eyes and going “everyone is stupid but me” doesn’t make you right. It just makes you not worth talking to.

You’re hung up on the product like a bunch of other people, and not looking at the consumer.

I’m a consumer of the product. The product that’s on offer here. You, on the other hand, are hung up on how the product isn’t the same as those other products over there. Trying to externalize your bullshit and put it on others, again, makes you not worth talking to.

Federation won’t do shit to change human nature.

And no one is saying it will. Stop arguing with scarecrows. They’re going to outwit you.

The federated internet is not an open park where everyone hangs out together. It’s a billion small spaces that link to neighbouring spaces. The idea that defederation is a problem, or that people using different webserver software is an issue, needs to be left at the door.

This isn’t “Reddit but with weirdly more complex subreddit names”, or “Twitter, but everyone’s user name looks like an email address”, but a network of a thousand independent social websites, each doing their own thing.

And that’s a good thing. Expecting it to be centralized, corporate social media, only without the drive towards enshitification will make everything seem uncanny and broken. This isn’t that. This is something new.

And something old.

Or to the category community. You might not find an active group dedicated to Dodge Ram transmissions, but there’s at least one group for Cars, or maybe even Trucks!

You should check out something like Tesserect, it’s a 3rd party front end for Lemmy that includes a lot of quality of life features, including word filtering. The demo is here: https://tesseract.dubvee.org/

If you like it, you could petition lemmy.world to offer it as an option directly.

Mass adoption is fundamental to make any social media viable;

Forums used to be lively and self-sustaining with memberships in the low hundreds. You only need “mass adoption” if you want and unending stream of novelty bullshit that you don’t actially want to engage with to entertain yourself with while on the toilet.

Community building involves more than just posting. It’s “If you post it, post about it everywhere else, and talk about it with everybody who will listen”. And then dealing with months if silence while you keep posting things that inspire others to join in.

Yeah. It’s the same with Mastodon. “There are a bunch of toxic people making me feel unwelcome” can be met with “so I left” or “so we flooded the place and took over, because there were only lile 800 people there”

I wonder how much fuss would have to be put up in order to get nodeBB supporting it.

A lot of the small communities are not dead, they simply have a low post rate. If you actually post something of interest to them, they get engagement.

Social media suffers from the curse of the Pareto principle: The overwhelming majority of users do not generate content. They also suffer from the network effect: Most people will be where the content is, and most content creators will stay where the audience is. What we have on Lemmy is a group of people that skews more heavily toward consumption or commenting than posting new content, and the ever present thief of joy.

and the Fediverse in general

A significant number of the not-Lemmy-or-Mastodon servers support emoji and custom emoticon tags, not just ‘up’, ‘down’, or ‘star’. I wish that was more widely adopted.

I think a surprising number of people use the ‘All’ feed, both here, and on Reddit.

Thing is, it can be great for niches! The Star Trek instance is very Star Trek. The TTRPG instance has a lot of potential. If we try to build the fediverse out from these niche nodes first, instead of starting from the general and trying to branch out, it could work a lot better than what we currently have.

Unfortunately, community building is work, and it’s work that users actually do on the bigger, corporate sites. Those community builders helped get those spaces going, helped make them appealing, and help trap users there. In smaller spaces like this, we need to be the community builders, not just the content consumers.

One thing I find really helps is to use something that doesn’t look like the space you left. Lemmy looks an awful lot like Reddit, but it has themes, and even alternative web clients that can change the experience and make it feel like something new.

Lemmy also isn’t the content and communities, it’s just the website’s server software. You can access… ugh… the “threadiverse”… from websites using other ActivityPub enabled servers. There’s an ActivityPub Discourse plugin. nodeBB is adding ActivityPub support in its next version. Friendica and Hubzilla have group support, and work with Lemmy-hosted communities.

Find a new window on social media, and it might help you engage with it differently.

The other thing you can do is just niche down a bit here. Find a few active communities that you’re interested in, and focus your attention on them. Lemmy is actually much, much more like classic forums, where communities or spheres of interest have their own website. The difference here is that you can actually look outside of those communities to interact with other forums, too. It works a a lot better if you treat it that way. Find your home, as it were, and branch out from there.

Unfortunately, the modern mental model of social media is the fire hose, not the node-and-spoke that is actually best supported by the technology.

Search will never search non-local content. That’s not how search works anywhere. Even Google is searching local content.

That’s what search engine spiders do. They create local profiles of websites that end up being sorted and searched.

We have to give up on the idea of having easy and direct access to the whole of thw fediverse. Fefiverse sites don’t even know about every other fediverse site, and they never will.

That was a big complaint during the 2022 migration. And it’s something that’s basically available on every fediverse platform not called Mastodon. I wish that fact had caused more people to actually check out those platforms, rather than further entrench Mastodon as the core of the fediverse.

the Fediverse may be missing a clear, cohesive narrative.

I think this is because it’s not a clear, cohesive place. Developers keep trying to make it look like centralized social media, but I don’t think that’s going to work in the end; it certainly isn’t working now. Trying to dress it up as something that it’s not, just because that thing is currently popular with the masses, does nothing but set us up for failure.

Mastodon is a second rate Twitter, Lemmy is a second rate Reddit, etc. The existing model of trying to make all of this look like one, single, central location is uncanny, and people notice that.

Lemmy’s got some good theming options, and the templates are there to do custom theming work. There’s the potential for some real website branding there, in that. But if you look at Mastodon, the biggest player in the game right now, the developers go out of their way to homogenize the Mastodon experience. Every Masto website looks fundamentally identical to all of the others. It’s doing everything it can to make it look like “Mastodon” is a place on the Internet, in the same way that “WordPress” is not.

And that’s a problem. ActivityPub doesn’t really support that fiction.

Some ideas have been floated around in the microblog space, and tested in some places. Having ‘Local’ be the default timeline has worked out pretty well on Catodon. Strong community theming has kept tenforward.social on topic, with most people there discussing Star Trek. The art-based Masto instances work well, and seem to be fairly sticky. But generic, general “Mastodon” is failing to inspire folks, and lacks the pop culture discussion that the general public wants. Journalists have bounced, due to audience engagement tapering off. Communities of colour keep getting chased off of the big instances.

Attempts to occupy the “general” space and branch out into niche interests aren’t working. The focus really needs to be shifted back in the other direction.

I’ve been arguing for over 2 years now that the actual value proposition of the fediverse is Community+. There are several Lemmy and Mastodon instances that are built around this – tenforward.social is a Star Trek themed and focused Mastodon site, where the vast majority of local chatter is focused on Star Trek, and startrek.website, beehaw.org, midwest.social, ttrpg.network, etc. are all community or interest focused Lemmy-based websites – and they all seem to actually work in that model. People aren’t signing up to the Star Trek Lemmy site to talk primarily about Call of Duty or American politics. They get their Star Trek community, and they can engage in those general interest discussions that are being hosted elsewhere, and everybody wins.

The key to growth, then, really is getting enough special interest and community websites up and running on the fediverse, and letting people discover the the power of being connected to people on other social media websites without having to sign up over there, too.

If Bluesky was using ActivityPub, there’d be no issue here right now. We’d all be able to get Community+Bluesky and be all the happier for it. But they’ve created their own system that’s prohibitively expensive for the average person to utilize without having a direct connection to Bluesky’s hardware, meaning the control forever remains in the hands of corporate interests and the rich. And that’s just a play at being the next Amazon. We’re either locked out, or we’re under their thumb. And that’s not really where any of us who are engaged with this fediverse project wanted to be.

It also points to what the best use of a federated content sharing network is, and it’s not “create something that looks like it has unfettered access to some canonical whole”. It’s small networks of users with related interests having the majority of their discussions with each other, while also being able to pull content from other interest groups they may be interested in.

Like, a… to re-use a random example I pulled out of my ass in some other thread… Mazda enthusiast forum, where most people are talking about their Mazdas, but also one person’s really into the New York Yankees, and another also cares about their Dodge truck. The usage case is 80% local discussion, 20% off-site.

The currently attempted model is “everything is general interest, and you have to search for your niche, and it could be anywhere”, because that’s how it works on Twitter, or even on Reddit (subreddit squatting, subreddit splits, and early millennial internet humour come to mind). But it’s all being done to disguise what the fediverse is, and make it look like what already exists, rather than trying to usher in something different. And it just… can’t compete that way.

Mirroring the entire network is what makes it act like Twitter.

I’m not convinced that that’s A) something we should want, and B) a fight we can win. Trying to recreate what already exists, using technology that’s not really suited for it, feels like an uncanny skeuomorphism to me.

Do the volunteers want people to use what they make?

Because, I’ll be honest, based on how people on the fediverse talk about people coming from Twitter or Reddit or wherever, I’m not convinced that they do. Rather, they just want to pat themselves on the back for being high minded developers.