There’s 1+ billion Mandarin speakers that will tell you they live in Zhōngguó, compared to those 330 million that say they live in China. Which is right?
I’m an American, and I too know the difference between cottage and Shepherd’s pie. Some people never leave their small towns and assume their experience and limited knowledge is universal.
This perspective is so exhausting to me. We roll down windows, dial phones, use a clicker, and write on blackboards (or chalkboards, or whiteboards) that are actually computers. None of these are faithful literal descriptions of the actual actions involved, and none of them are wrong.
Biscuits are a long established name for the food, because it resembles the more accurately named, twice baked equivalent, just as a smart board resembles a chalkboard.
Precision is often important- telling a carpenter that two things are plumb makes sense, but it’s not wrong or inaccurate to say level when you’re talking to a general audience.
We have shepherd’s pie (lamb) and cottage pie (beef) and fisherman’s pie (fish). They’re all constructed in much the same way but the name refers to the contents.
It’s just a misunderstanding and it’s not important but there is a real non-obsolete reason these dishes have the names they have.
That’s absolutely fair, I was really more responding to the biscuits thing, tone of “you didn’t know what you were making,” and generally prescriptivist vibe.
Almost all of them extend from an action that still holds true:
Roll down windows - you still get manually operated windows, and the motor rolls in electric ones.
Dial phones - the verb has a separate definition to the noun.
Use a clicker - not sure what you mean here, but things do still click.
Write on computers - a piece of writing can be typed or hand-written. It’s about making a marking on a surface.
Blackboards/chalkboards/whiteboards - the first two are generally wrong, whiteboard is the only one that would apply to a digital surface.
I’ll throw in another one:
Windmill - they’re not windmills, they don’t mill anything. They’re wind turbines.
Some of these terms stem from marketing people, who are only a couple steps down from estate agents in terms of the evil they bring into the world. This should not be celebrated.
Many of these can be considered acceptable, even in the ways that they’re wrong, but it’s still acknowledged that they are wrong. With biscuits, people think they’re right.
Biscuits are established because people were wrong. That doesn’t mean people today are right.
Your example of plumb and level doesn’t work, because plumb is still considered the correct term for vertical alignment. People will generally know what you mean when you say level, but the other term is still considered more correct.
“Biscuits” are nice, but they’re not really biscuits, they’re savoury scones. Meanwhile, most store bought long shelf life cookies are biscuits, in spite of being sweet, while fresh cookies are generally not. Similarly, tomatoes are fruits, not vegetables.
You can say it the wrong way all you want, but when it goes against the core definition it can never truly be right. I literally can’t stand it being so.
I’m sorry you can’t stand it be so, but that’s literally how language works.
I’m especially sorry because I’m just as dedicated to descriptivism as you seem to be to prescriptivism- the incredibly petty baby inside me upon reading your initial comment wanted to invent a dish called Sheperds Pie (spelling intentional because I’m a jerk) with steak to fuck with prescriptivists. I’m certainly not proud of that, I just think it shows how automatic my reaction to the idea of language being hemmed in is.
I’m sorry you can’t stand it be so, but that’s literally how language works.
I think you wooshed on my joke about the definition of “literally”.
the incredibly petty baby inside me upon reading your initial comment wanted to invent a dish called Sheperds Pie (spelling intentional because I’m a jerk) with steak to fuck with prescriptivists.
I’m all for that! The difference is you know you’re doing it wrong and are choosing to do that, rather than just saying the wrong thing.
I did whoosh on it. I was really excited for you to be just as passionate as I am, just in a diametrically opposed way, and I might have used similar words. Womp womp
What you’re describing is those disgusting “layers” biscuits. Proper biscuits do not have layers and have absolutely zero lamination. And they’re made with flour made from soft red winter wheat.
You are hereby ordered to report to my kitchen Saturday morning for re-education. Which takes the form of biscuits and gravy.
E: Hey! And the breakfast will be eaten by a grue.
Elizabeth David in English Bread and Yeast Cookery. She writes,
It is interesting that these soft biscuits are common to Guernsey, and that the term biscuit as applied to a soft product was retained in these places, and in America, whereas in England it has completely died out
The etymology of the word comes from French and Latin, literally meaning “twice cooked”.
I come from the Channel Islands, I can tell you from experience that it’s not exactly a place of high education. I can also easily see them giving a two fingered salute to the French, as well as to the English on occassion.
The progenitor of the American biscuit, the British Hardtack biscuit from the Navy, was cooked 4 times, so let’s not get too high on our own farts that “we have the right way because we cook it twice just like the French intended!”
But what the wonderfully pedantic Elizabeth David is saying is that this was a common term, even though etymologically incorrect because language evolves, and now it only exists in this form in Guernsey and the U.S.
Her book is fantastic if you are a bread geek, maybe even if you aren’t , or you’re looking for interesting, often forgotten local breads.
Yeah I have no problem with it being a common term, I just feel the need to point out it’s wrong hah. People say wrong things all the time colloquially, but they know it’s wrong.
Calling a cottage pie a shepherd’s pie is worse though, along with calling a wind turbine a windmill.
Shepherds Pie is usually beef in the US. Lamb and mutton aren’t very widely consumed in this US. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a reference to Cottage Pie in the US.
If I ordered shepherd’s pie and it came with any meat other than mutton I’d be unhappy because it’s not shepherd’s pie. Maybe this is just a regional thing though, looks tasty anyway.
Yeah but most people just call it shepards pie either way.
“most people” is likely geographically influenced. I’m guessing you’re in the US.
In the UK and Ireland, where the dish originated, “most people” would tell you it’s a Shepherd’s pie because shepherds herd she(e)p, not cows.
Source: American that moved to the UK
Weird, I keep reading your comment and yet the fact that 330,000,000 > 67,000,000 doesn’t seem to be changing.
You might want to account for the number of people in respective countries that have a concept of what shepherds pie actually is.
There’s 1+ billion Mandarin speakers that will tell you they live in
Zhōngguó, compared to those 330 million that say they live inChina. Which is right?I’m an American, and I too know the difference between cottage and Shepherd’s pie. Some people never leave their small towns and assume their experience and limited knowledge is universal.
I’m in Ireland and 90% of the time I’ve had shepherd’s pie it has been beef
And Americans call savoury scones “biscuits” even though they’re not cooked twice.
“Most people” are wrong. Terminology exists for a reason. You made a cottage pie, you just didn’t know what you were making.
This perspective is so exhausting to me. We roll down windows, dial phones, use a clicker, and write on blackboards (or chalkboards, or whiteboards) that are actually computers. None of these are faithful literal descriptions of the actual actions involved, and none of them are wrong.
Biscuits are a long established name for the food, because it resembles the more accurately named, twice baked equivalent, just as a smart board resembles a chalkboard.
Precision is often important- telling a carpenter that two things are plumb makes sense, but it’s not wrong or inaccurate to say level when you’re talking to a general audience.
This is not like those other things.
We have shepherd’s pie (lamb) and cottage pie (beef) and fisherman’s pie (fish). They’re all constructed in much the same way but the name refers to the contents.
It’s just a misunderstanding and it’s not important but there is a real non-obsolete reason these dishes have the names they have.
That’s absolutely fair, I was really more responding to the biscuits thing, tone of “you didn’t know what you were making,” and generally prescriptivist vibe.
Almost all of them extend from an action that still holds true:
I’ll throw in another one:
Some of these terms stem from marketing people, who are only a couple steps down from estate agents in terms of the evil they bring into the world. This should not be celebrated.
Many of these can be considered acceptable, even in the ways that they’re wrong, but it’s still acknowledged that they are wrong. With biscuits, people think they’re right.
Biscuits are established because people were wrong. That doesn’t mean people today are right.
Your example of plumb and level doesn’t work, because plumb is still considered the correct term for vertical alignment. People will generally know what you mean when you say level, but the other term is still considered more correct.
“Biscuits” are nice, but they’re not really biscuits, they’re savoury scones. Meanwhile, most store bought long shelf life cookies are biscuits, in spite of being sweet, while fresh cookies are generally not. Similarly, tomatoes are fruits, not vegetables.
You can say it the wrong way all you want, but when it goes against the core definition it can never truly be right. I literally can’t stand it being so.
I’m sorry you can’t stand it be so, but that’s literally how language works.
I’m especially sorry because I’m just as dedicated to descriptivism as you seem to be to prescriptivism- the incredibly petty baby inside me upon reading your initial comment wanted to invent a dish called Sheperds Pie (spelling intentional because I’m a jerk) with steak to fuck with prescriptivists. I’m certainly not proud of that, I just think it shows how automatic my reaction to the idea of language being hemmed in is.
🤷
I think you wooshed on my joke about the definition of “literally”.
I’m all for that! The difference is you know you’re doing it wrong and are choosing to do that, rather than just saying the wrong thing.
I did whoosh on it. I was really excited for you to be just as passionate as I am, just in a diametrically opposed way, and I might have used similar words. Womp womp
A southern biscuit is nothing like a “savory scone.” It’s more like a cylindrical croissant.
Your answer really hurts my feelings.
What you’re describing is those disgusting “layers” biscuits. Proper biscuits do not have layers and have absolutely zero lamination. And they’re made with flour made from soft red winter wheat.
You are hereby ordered to report to my kitchen Saturday morning for re-education. Which takes the form of biscuits and gravy.
E: Hey! And the breakfast will be eaten by a grue.
Don’t start.
It is interesting that these soft biscuits are common to Guernsey, and that the term biscuit as applied to a soft product was retained in these places, and in America, whereas in England it has completely died out
The etymology of the word comes from French and Latin, literally meaning “twice cooked”.
I come from the Channel Islands, I can tell you from experience that it’s not exactly a place of high education. I can also easily see them giving a two fingered salute to the French, as well as to the English on occassion.
The progenitor of the American biscuit, the British Hardtack biscuit from the Navy, was cooked 4 times, so let’s not get too high on our own farts that “we have the right way because we cook it twice just like the French intended!”
He cooked it 22 times - that’s even better!!
But what the wonderfully pedantic Elizabeth David is saying is that this was a common term, even though etymologically incorrect because language evolves, and now it only exists in this form in Guernsey and the U.S.
Her book is fantastic if you are a bread geek, maybe even if you aren’t , or you’re looking for interesting, often forgotten local breads.
Yeah I have no problem with it being a common term, I just feel the need to point out it’s wrong hah. People say wrong things all the time colloquially, but they know it’s wrong.
Calling a cottage pie a shepherd’s pie is worse though, along with calling a wind turbine a windmill.
I will make a Windmill Pie and post it tomorrow. It will be very traditional with steak, lamb, kidney, and plenty of wind (I had beans today).
I’m all for that. Make the cheese look like solar panels for added effect.
No they don’t.
Shepard, sheep herd, sheep.
Shepherds Pie is usually beef in the US. Lamb and mutton aren’t very widely consumed in this US. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a reference to Cottage Pie in the US.
No it’s not you liar. I live in the US, and worked at a pub for years that serves Sheppards pie.
What state do you live in?
If I ordered shepherd’s pie and it came with any meat other than mutton I’d be unhappy because it’s not shepherd’s pie. Maybe this is just a regional thing though, looks tasty anyway.
Downvoted for being American
I’m Canadian … Much better than being American. Who cares about internet points anyways 🤷